Diverse annet ineressant
33889.3 in reply to 33889.1
Adrenals can be tested in several ways. The most accurate way would be through
an ACTH stim test where they draw baselines of several adrenal hormones and then
inject you with cortrosyn and redraw the same levels at 30 and 60 minutes after
You can have straight baselines but that will only tell you what your levels are
and will not tell you how your adrenals respond to stress. This may be a good
indicator for those who have low baselines but there are people who have good
baselines whose numbers do not do what they're supposed to after the injection.
So, a baseline can only tell half the story.
There are other tests as well. You can have a 24 hour urine for adrenal function
and you can also have an ASI (adrenal stress index) and there is another test
called a dexamethasone supression test.
Adrenals are a very tricky thing to get diagnosed as most doctors believe that
people do not have adrenal problems unless they have Addison's or Cushing's which
are extreme forms of adrenal failure or hyperfunction. The majority of physicians
do not believe in milder degrees of adrenal insufficiency.
Alot of people will have trouble even getting their doctor to run any of these
tests as they usually wait until a person shows extreme symptoms such as weight
loss, skin pigmentation, extremely low blood pressure and messed up electrolytes.
Unfortunately, on average people who have Addison's and complain for years state
that they have symptoms for 3-5 years before getting diagnosed and usually aren't
diagnosed until they suffer a life-threatening adrenal crisis. Adrenal tests are
only as good as those who understand and interpret the tests and we shouldn't
expect much from a test that can't even pick up those with the most severe form
of the condition until they nearly die from it.
If you feel that you have an adrenal insufficiency then I would strongly recommend
that you look for a physician who is familiar with milder forms of adrenal
insuffiiciency since most mainstream endos will not pick this up or even entertain
31334.136 in reply to 31334.133
I'm so glad the magnesium has helped! It has made a huge difference in my life
and I can't believe that something we take for granted as being part of our food
supply could get so depleted so easily.
Here's two more links talking about magnesium deficiency:
Best in health,
33220.3 in reply to 33220.1
heres a few websites to checkout
32576.14 in reply to 32576.13
First of all, there are differences between the drugs. Using cortef makes it
easier to mimic the body's natural adrenal rythym. Prednisone cannot do this.
When you take Prednisone it keeps your cortisol levels at a certain level for
a 24 hour period. Cortef does not. It has a much shorter half life and acts
more as your own adrenals would by giving you a boost and then leaving the body
within 90 minutes. So, there are differences between the two other than dosage
Prednisone and it's synthetic counterparts are 5 times more potent than the same
dose as cortef. 5 mgs of Cortef is not the same as 5mgs of Prednisone. The dose
that you will be currently taking of Prednisone would be equal to 25mgs of Cortef.
So, if you were taking 2.5 three times daily that would equal 7.5 mgs total for
the day. The new dose of prednisone would be as if you were taking 25mgs. of
Cortef. So, you will be increasing your cortisol intake.
32576.17 in reply to 32576.16
Not necessarily. There are plenty of people here who were even diagnosed with
normal TSH's around 4 who need to take more meds and have worse symptoms than
those with higher TSH's. So, even though there is information saying that the
higher the TSH the more severe it doesn't seem to be that way for everyone.
Yeah. I still smoke and I have no intentions of quitting or even trying until
all this is straightened out cause I know it will only make matters worse.
I do not know why they specify tap water as opposed to just saying water.
However, I would just do what it says for the most accurate results or call
them and ask them why they say this and if there is a specific reason for it.
I still believe that it is initial adrenal dysfunction that causes the Hashi's
and at least for me I know this is true. I had KNOWN adrenal dysfunction at
least 7 years before I developed Hashi's and according to Dr. Jefferies he believes
that had they addressed my adrenal condition then that I would have had a good
chance of not developing Hashi's and I do believe he's right. It is also a known
fact that many with an adrenal condition called CAH also develop Hashi's. He has
to be right and there has to be a connection or else how can it be explained that
all these people with a genetic adrenal condition are also be so prone to Hashi's????
Interestingly enough, when I read their boards I notice that the ones who aren't
being treated with cortisol are the ones who've developed Hashi's as compared to
those who are taking cortisol. So, at the very least it is very suspicous that
there is a relation between lousy adrenals causing hashi's.
The endo just told me there's no such thing as low-grade adrenal fatigue. Is
that true, or is he misinformed/out of date? He also told me there's no risk
to trying different anti-depressants, which I know isn't true!
Thanks for any information. :)
From: BLBRMTH4 Apr-1 7:27 pm
33767.2 in reply to 33767.1
Well, the problem is that he probably really believes that and was probably
taught that but let's think about that for a second. There are different degrees
of thyroid failure, obviously we know that cause everyone needs a different dose
and there are different degrees of pituitary failure.
Some people only have pit.
failure in one area rather than in all and in different degrees and we know in
general that people can have different degrees in the severity even though they
may share the same disease. So, why is it that the adrenal glands, according to
most doctors, are the only part of the body that cannot have partial failure?
Unfortunately, that is what most of them believe.
No. It's not true. You CAN have milder degrees of adrenal insufficiency that
do not result in total failure. However, milder degrees can also cause problems
and symptoms they just don't kill you like total failure would. There is much
information out there now that certain diseases are being linked to milder
deficiencies of adrenal failure such as asthma, allergies, autoimmune diseases
and arthritis. So, there is plenty of information it's just unfortunate that most
doctors do not know this and if they do they choose to ignore it.
If you really
believe that you may have an adrenal problem then I would suggest
that you find a doctor who is aware of this rather than continuing to try to get
it through to your current doctor. It usually doesn't work as most of them do
not change their position on this subject and believe the only adrenal failure
there is is Addison's.
From: BROWNEYEGAL Apr-2 5:51 pm
To: BLBRMTH4 (3 of 3)
33767.3 in reply to 33767.2
Thanks for your reply. I agree totally with what you said - there are more and
less severe forms of hypo, so why can't it be the same for adrenals? This doctor
really thought he knew better than I do about my own symptoms. And there's no
risk to trying different anti-depressants?!? Please. I'm not that gullible.
Anyway, thanks for your help!
For everyone who thought that Depo-Provera, Provera, and Megace were ok drugs
to take, read this:
I'm suffering adrenal insufficiency that materialised IMMEDIATELY after stopping
Depo-Provera. I don't know if my adrenals will ever come back on. No wonder I
gained 2 stone, developed a huge belly, and lost my blood sugar control, and
then when i didn't return for my third shot, basically physically collapsed,
and only got back on my feet by taking prednisolone.
Progesterone-synthesised progestins are not good for your health.
I know that somewhere in this thread is a link to a page that compares symptoms
of hypo and adrenal issues. Could someone provide me with that link, please?
Thank you so much!
From: MOMKELLY Mar-9 4:26 pm
To: JOYCE7810 (2 of 5)
32859.2 in reply to 32859.1
Dr Rind's site www.drrind.com
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you can not do."
From: KITTYFYINC Mar-9 5:36 pm
To: MOMKELLY (3 of 5)
32859.3 in reply to 32859.2
More direct link to that sit efor what you are looking for.
From: CAPER711 Apr-4 8:20 pm
To: ALL (1 of 5)
Good evening, all! I am a frequent visitor to this site, but I have generally
been a silent observer. It is wonderful to have a forum to go to that has so
many people who are in the same boat.
Here is my story. I was diagnosed with Hashi and hypothyroidism in January.
My lab results are not very typical. The results that led to my diagnosis were
(and I apologize that I am writing from Canada and the ref. ranges are different):
TSH 1.0 (.5 - 5.5), FT4 8 (11.5 - 23), and Anti-TPO 1:1600
When my GP saw the results she said, "Darlin', no wonder you feel so awful" and
referred me to an endo. He diagnosed me, put me on Synthroid 100 and now I feel
MUCH better - TSH .1 (.5 - 5.5) FT4 18 (11.5 - 23).
BUT, my question is this: Since I always had low normal TSH and very low FT4,
could this be caused by secondary hypothyroidism, or is it weird because of the
Hashimoto's Disease? I am concerned because I have been having irregular periods,
and my libido is basically non-existant (I am 30 and newly married!!) I have
another appt. with the endo in May, and he is going to test my FSH, LH, Prolactin
and cortisol, but I am quite anxious in the meantime. Any feedback would be
From: EmmaGx (EMMAGX1) Apr-4 11:13 pm
To: CAPER711 unread (2 of 5)
1048.2 in reply to 1048.1
I'm really sorry to send you somewhere else but it's 5 in the morning and I need
sleep but I thought that I should reply to this today instead of waiting, Please
feel free to E-mail me though if you have any furthur questions and when my brain
is working again I will reply properly!
You need to have an ACTH stim test as soon as possible.
Please look at this thread and the advice that I have given the girl on this thread.
I hope this is of help to you!
Take Care EmmaGx
From: NICOLACARTLI 5:20 am
To: CAPER711 unread (3 of 5)
1048.3 in reply to 1048.1
if you've got hashis you haven't got secondary hypo, its primary. I think the
tsh can be low when you have hashis, its the fact you have high antibodies that
is relevant. also, when you ahve hashis you can have surges when your tsh is
low, then it goes high again, I haven't described this very well, hopefully someone
else will describe it better!!
your T4 was very low as well, which would cause you to feel terrible. thats
excellent you have recovered so quickly.
irregular periods and low libido are part of hypo unfortunately, but it sounds
like tey're testing you for polycystic ovaries as well, with the fh and lsh tests,
and prolactin. they are also testing you for an adrenal deficiency- cortisol.
polycystic ovaries causes irregular or sometimes non existent periods as well,
some of the symptoms overlap with hypo.
the libido does improve apparently as do the periods after your hormones and
levels are regulated again. mine still hasn't though, after 8 months of meds!
I think its probably one of the last things to improve.
hope this all makes sense, nicola xx
From: EmmaGx (EMMAGX1) 11:21 am
To: NICOLACARTLI unread (4 of 5)
1048.4 in reply to 1048.3
It is possible to have hashis and hypopituitary at the same time, the thyroid
and pituitary are two different glands.
And Polyglandular Autoimmune faliur can give the same symptoms as hypopituitary
disiese. The only way to tell them apart is the blood work.
Can anyone tell me if they know where to get Armour cheaper than £50 per 200 1/2
grain. I currently get it from Springfield pharmacy but it has gone up about £20
in the last few months! Dr Skinner has converted me from 3 grains of Armour and
50 Thyroxine to 1 grain of Armour and 250 Thyroxine, because of the cost. I have
tried it for 2 months but will have to go back to the good stuff (Armour) because
I am now constantly tired and am slowly gaining weight. I must admit I haven't
had the tight throat for a while, but I would rather have that than the tiredness
and extra weight.
From: SUSANW12 Apr-3 5:03 pm
To: SEBROWN1 (2 of 4)
1044.2 in reply to 1044.1
Ask Springfield to dispense in larger tablets. I think Springfield is cheaper
than any other pharmacy, Boots were quite a lot more expensive. 1 grain Armour
from Springfield were £21.50 for 100 the last time I had them (that was last
September so I suppose they might have gone up since then) which is a lot cheaper
than the same amount in half-grain size. The 2 grain size even cheaper pro-rata.
Ring Springfield and ask them the cost of the different sizes. You can always buy a
pill cutter and cut in half. My pill cutter cost 99p from Numark and works well.
1044.4 in reply to 1044.3
I'm not sure that you will find a cheaper source than Springfield. I think
there has been an increase in the price of Armour itself rather than Springfield
just charging more. I know that Boots used to be more expensive but I suppose
it is worth asking them or another local pharmacy what the charge would be, but
if you go for the bigger size they would certainly be cheaper than the half-grains.
My doctor switched me to generic thyroid by TCL which is the one Dr Peatfield
used to use for some of his patients, and substitute for Armour when he ran out.
I know generic doesn't suit everyone but at the moment I have not noticed any
difference, I am certainly no worse on it. My doctor charged £2.50 for
100 x 1grain tablets so it is cheap as chips compared to Armour and seems
to be doing the same job. Would it be worth you trying it do you think?
Maybe give it a go for a month and swap back to Armour if it isn't as good
Best wishes, Susan
From: JERU1 Apr-8 8:10 pm
To: ON AND ON (KLOGILVIE) (3 of 5)
34116.3 in reply to 34116.1
Dr Derry has some interesting ideas on sexual abuse. My friend went to see him.
He says that if it occurs before the age of 12, the constant fight or flight
of the glands wears out neuro-receptors. (I think this is how she said it).
She needs lots of T3 to get off the anti-everyting drugs she takes.
Jeru1 BC Canada
From: WPFIFER Apr-11 3:59 am
To: nette (SCROZZLED) (5 of 5)
34116.5 in reply to 34116.2
Fascinating and sobering article. Thanks for alerting us to it.
From the article:
"What traits or capacities might be beneficial for survival in the harsh
conditions of earlier times? Some of the more obvious are the potential to
mobilize an intense fight-or-flight response...snip
....McEwen has recently theorized that overactivation of stress response systems,
a reaction that may be necessary for short-term survival, increases the risk for
obesity, type II diabetes and hypertension; leads to a host of psychiatric problems,
including a heightened risk of suicide; and accelerates the aging and degeneration
of brain structures, including the hippocampus.
Stress sculpts the brain to exhibit various antisocial, though adaptive, behaviors.
Whether it comes in the form of physical, emotional or sexual trauma or through
exposure to warfare, famine or pestilence, stress can set off a ripple of hormonal
changes that permanently wire a child's brain to cope with a malevolent world.
Through this chain of events, violence and abuse pass from generation to generation
as well as from one society to the next. Our stark conclusion is that we see the
need to do much more to ensure that child abuse does not happen in the first place,
because once these key brain alterations occur, there may be no going back.
From the article - Copyright Scientific American, Inc. Mar 2002
JRheum Update Service
Adrenal Gland Hypofunction in Active Polymyalgia Rheumatica. Effect of
Glucocorticoid Treatment on Adrenal Hormones and Interleukin 6
MAURIZIO CUTOLO, RAINER H. STRAUB, LUCA FOPPIANI, CAMILLA PRETE, LIA PULSATELLI,
ALBERTO SULLI, LUIGI BOIARDI, PIERLUIGI MACCHIONI, MASSIMO GIUSTI, CARMEN PIZZORNI,
BRUNO SERIOLO, and CARLO SALVARANI
Objective. To evaluate hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis function in
patients with recent onset polymyalgia rheumatica (PMR) not previously treated
with glucocorticoids; and to detect possible correlations between adrenal hormone
levels, interleukin 6 (IL-6), and other acute phase reactants at baseline and during
12 months of glucocorticoid treatment.
Methods. Forty-one PMR patients of both sexes with recent onset disease and
healthy sex and age matched controls were enrolled into a longitudinal study.
Patients were monitored for serum cortisol, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS),
androstenedione (ASD), and clinical and laboratory measures of disease activity such
as C-reactive protein and IL-6 concentrations at baseline and after 1, 3, 6, 9 and
12 months of glucocorticoid treatment. To assess dynamic HPA axis function, serum
cortisol and plasma adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) levels were evaluated in
another 8 patients with recent onset PMR not treated with glucocorticoid in
comparison to controls after challenge with ovine corticotropin releasing hormone
(oCRH) test. In addition, serum cortisol and 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) levels
were evaluated after stimulation with low dose (1 µg) intravenous ACTH.
Results. Serum cortisol and ASD levels of all PMR patients at baseline did not
differ from controls. During followup, cortisol levels dipped at one and 3 months.
Serum DHEAS levels in all patients were significantly lower than in controls at
baseline. In female PMR patients a significant correlation was found at baseline
between cortisol levels and duration of disease. Serum concentrations of IL-6 at
baseline were significantly higher in PMR patients than in controls. During 12
months of glucocorticoid treatment IL-6 levels dropped significantly at one month;
thereafter they remained stable and did not increase again despite tapering of the
glucocorticoid dose. After oCRH stimulation, a similar cortisol response was found
in patients and controls. After ACTH administration, a significant cortisol peak was
detected in patients and controls, whereas no significant difference in cortisol
area-under-the-curve (AUC) was found between the groups. In contrast, ACTH induced
a significantly higher (p less than 0.05) peak of 17-OHP and AUC in PMR patients
than in controls.
Conclusion. This study found reduced production of adrenal hormones (cortisol,
DHEAS) at baseline in patients with active and untreated PMR. The defect seems
mainly related to altered adrenal responsiveness to the ACTH stimulation
(i.e., increased 17-OHP), at least in untreated patients. The 12 month
glucocorticoid treatment of patients reduced the production of inflammatory
mediators (i.e., IL-6) in a stable manner that persisted after glucocorticoids
were tapered. (J Rheumatol 2002; 29:748-56)
30095.1176 in reply to 30095.952
I just wanted to thank you for the recommendation of Dr. Friedman. I just got
back from LA and he diagnosed me with Addison's disease. Not that I haven't known
this I just haven't been officially diagnosed until now.
Anyway, he said my aldosterone was to low and he is suspicous of my renin levels
and says that my baseline cortisol is to low. I brought all my old test results
and he said that even though I went from 9-27 on my stim that he feels that is due
to the dose of cortrosyn that was given.
He gave me the short test and said he won't be surprised in the least if I fail
it. So, he put me on florinef for now for my aldosterone and is waiting for
my short stim results. Interestingly enough, I went to Dr. Maria New the
supposed adrenal expert at Cornell, and was told that I do not have an adrenal
problem. I had my results from her office and Dr. Friedman said he was surprised
that she said I didn't have a problem as he said he has a paper that she wrote
exactly describing what I have and still failed to diagnose it. So, it has all
been interesting and I just wanted to let you know what happened and say thanks
and tell you I'm glad I made the trip.
Oh, by the way, we talked about you and I told him how great you were and he
agreed and thought you were one smart lady. Just giving you a shameless plug LOL
30095.1186 in reply to 30095.1183
Gastric dumping is caused by increased motility stimulated by thyroid problems,
low estradiol, high cortisol.....it is a lot more common than doctors think....
related to abnormal sympathetic nerve stimulation...and there is a plexus
behind the duodenum that suddenly signals when the duodenum is overloaded
with food and instead of gradually grinding it through, "dumps" all at once.
First seen post vagotomy and pyloroplasty ( and old stomach surgery ) but also
seen with spine problems etc.
Tagamet decreased gastric motility by altering sympathetic nerve stimulation
response, increasing estradiol receptors in the cells and lowering histamine
in the stomach. I used it all the time in IC patients to control their rapid
gastric emptying and abnormal amino acid metabolism.
30095.1187 in reply to 30095.1184
The generic version over the counter is always 50% lower than prescription..so
the dose is 200mg three times a day...
Long story already told re tagamet/gastric motility/estradiol/sympathetic
nerves...see previous postings,.
30095.1188 in reply to 30095.1185
E2 IS estradiol....so not sure what you are saying..however, your levels are
low and you need a mild basting of estradiol. DOn't worry about the
progesterone....since you didn't ovulate it will be low.
I understand your frustration!!!
I found an answer. And it did involve a diet change. Most people think
that a diet change won't work for them but there is one change that most
people don't seem to be willing to try.
I now eat about 95% raw foods - fruits and salads. I am hypothyroid and
have been for 6 years. I was completely unable to lose the weight I gained
even though I was eating properly and working out with a trainer twice a
week. The only thing that has worked for me is the raw food diet. Plus, I
am on a message board with 13 other women who are hypo and are raw fooding
it. All of them have shown success at losing weight.
The difference between this diet and other diets is that it isn't about
losing weight. It's about gaining health. And there are a few type 2
diabetics on another board that say they can control their diabetes with
Since going mostly raw last July I have:
1. Cured my IBS
2. Gotten rid of my acne
3. Lost 32 pounds
4. Gotten rid of my fibroid tumor
5. Gotten rid of my seasonal allergies
6. Gotten rid of my food allergies
7. Gotten off of cytomel (T3 supplement)
Before you make excuses as to why you can not try this diet - remember that
it is all in your mind. And you can change your mind.
If you want to know more, email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
And I will send you a page of links to testimonials and message boards where
you can get all your questions answered. There are no supplements to buy
and no fancy equipment to buy - only a good blender. This is the very best
thing I have done for myself.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you luck.
34623.12 in reply to 34623.1
Let me share with you a day in the life of an adrenal person - tonite i collapsed
in the docs sugery. such fun to be soo weak to be paralyzed. had nasty naseau (
vomit taste) in my mouth and all the nurses done was to sit me upwards! NO salt
was blacked out for 30 mins - seems to progress pretty fast - so look
on the bright side. the agony will be short (think heart attack) foundout my
Bp has rose
frankly i look forward to the wil and funeral - no doctor here within
Australia wants to even think that a person at 25 could have adrenal issues.
Learnt even bloodwork can be a lair. (cortisone 400 AM - 20 mg) Sorry that
Cortisone is an imposter - i feel really sick. and my testosterone (as a male)
might be "normal" but i lost tonnes of muscle (a sign with adrenalfatigue)
Soo my advice is - read "The safe Uses of Cortisone" Dr William Jeffries and
make up your mine with regards to Adrenals & hashimottos. IF in the USA - i
would visit the man myself. take the travel and trip. Many doctors within
Australia look blank
He's the xpert. Dr Williams Jeffreis (adrenals) and Dr Broda Barnes was (thyroid)
the poineers within this two feilds and are brilliant. Does anyone know wether
they shared work and research? would be mighty interested (Undx Adrenal & 2nd Thyroid)
From: BLBRMTH4 Apr-22 9:53 am
To: MATTDUDE24 (13 of 21)
34623.13 in reply to 34623.12
I have the answer to your question. I went to Jefferies and I specifically asked
him why Barnes didn't mention the adrenal connection in his book because if he
did alot of us could have known alot more right off the bat. I did know that Barnes
Foundation does push the treatment of adrenals along with thyroid but didn't know
why if they push it it was not mentioned in the book and this is what I was told
He said that at the time that Barnes wrote the book he did not know about the
adrenal connection to Hashi's. Further down the line Barnes and Jefferies met
and although Dr. Barnes did quite well on thyroid he never fully recovered from
his own hypothyroidism. Dr. Jefferies explained the whole adrenal thing to him
and Barnes then started to take cortisol as recommended by Jefferies. So, yes,
they met and they exchanged research but it was after Barnes had written his book.
It's also the reason why Jefferies research is a part of Barnes Foundation
Jefferies does lecture at Barnes Foundation conferences and Jefferies does
agree with Barnes that the TSH means absolutely nothing. The only thing they
disagree on is the medication. Barnes prefers Armour and Jefferies doesn't think
that it matters what drug is used as long as you get enough of it. Dr. Jefferies
himself takes both Synthroid and cortisol.
34440.11 in reply to 34440.3
The problem with posts where people say that your free T3 and your free T4 should
be in the upper quadrant is that those numbers aren't right for a lot of us,
and in fact, can be downright dangerous.
I for one feel a lot better when my free T4 and free T3 are around mid-point.
I was very sick when my free T4 was at the high end.
34440.13 in reply to 34440.1
Talk with Leslie B in the "adrenals" section. Your labwork to me looks like Low
T4 (thus your hypothyrodism) and your original TSH looks okay within normal.
so i would suspec with your reaction to the thyroid thats its adrenal.
i had a nasty reaction to thyroid myself. and as an adrenal with 2nd thyroid
issues - i would avoid it
An Hypothyroid Adrenal should have treatment with Adrenal hormones ALONE.
Thats DHEA/Cortisone. Dunno ask me dosages and see an endo about this
suggestions please - its obvious thyroid is wrong for your body & treatment
(beta stimulation (thyroid) - heart pumps out too fast and you have an heart
Note Adrenals can stop the heart races (cortisone can control the adrenaline)
stimulated with Thyroid. Thats why Thyroid and Adrenals work as a team! Thyroid
PROMOTES Adrenaline. Without the Cortisone to break Adrenaline (released from
adrenals) once finished......Yes Cortisone & Adrenaline are two separate Adrenal
hormones. Suprised me myself.
Talk with leslie B please!!!!!
A word to the wise - Most docs believe your adrenal gland is either
fully functional (you're fine) or its in total collapse and you're about to die
(full blown Addison's or Cushings). My GUESS - could be wrong, not all docs are
the same - is that your endo will blow off any questions about adrenal problems.
There seems to be no room in their world view for gradual failure or insufficiency.
So read up on it, you might end up having to seek treatment for low adrenals
1064.36 in reply to 1064.32
Originally I was on 150 mg thyroxine and converted to 3 gr Armour and
40 mcg tertroxin, changing over the course of a week, splitting
the dose, this resulted in an almost magical improvement, looking
back over my notes the day after I started T3 just says WOW. Over
the next year I lost 30lbs and slowly adjusted my meds to get rid
of the last few symptoms, I also slowly moved the second dose closer
to the first thing one to get rid of afternoon naps and to improve
slight insomnia. Throughout this I kept careful notes on dose and
how I felt so I could tell what does what. I also take selenium and
zinc supplements and a fairly low carb diet. I am now symptom free
and only a stone overweight which isn't too bad for 49.
I got the T3 with the Armour as I was so ill on thyroxine that Dr. Peatfield thought
I had conversion problems, I also had prednisolone to start with, but can cope
without it now.
hope this is of some use,
1076.5 in reply to 1076.3
I had a real problem with the generic form of thyroxine that they started to give
me a couple of years ago - I was allergic to it. I started to feel bad with it in
June 2000 and by Christmas that year I couldn't take it at all. By Easter I couldn't
do anything.. I had about 2 months off work and was in a dreadful state. My Doctor
gave me amytriptiline which help with the sleep and gave me enough oomph to go and
visit Dr Skinner who started me on Armour. I took this from about June to December,
and although I felt a bit better I was still struggling. He suggested I suppliment
the Armour with T4 . I started with 25 mcg in January and was depressed the whole
time... then I upped the dose to 50 and started to feel emotionally and mentally
unstable ... this is when I finally realised that it was the tablets that had done
this. I found out from my chemist the name of the company that produced the thyroxin
I had been originally quite happy on for a whole year before getting so ill. This
was eltroxin. I started adding this and dropping the armour gradually at the beginning
of February. I was over medicating for a while, but have just dropped the level to
the dose I was on originally and I feel better every day.
I'm even beginning to enjoy my job a little now!
Sorry if I've added rather more detail than you needed, but the story needs to be
told whole I think. I thank heaven for a helpful doctor, a wonderful boyfriend,
friends and family, an understanding boss (his son had chronic fatigue) and this
I do hope you get better soon and find some more energy. I really know how it
feels to worry about whether you can cope with a job you used to love. Do you have
any test results at all? I'd be interested to see what you have.
I'd like everyone to welcome Linda Thipthorp of Truro, Cornwall, who will be
participating here on the UK board as a UK support expert!
Linda was born with a lingual thyroid that failed to travel from the base of the
tongue to the front of the neck. It had no room to grow and consequently she
I had inadequate thyroid hormone. Throughout my life I was
ill, but no GP suspected thyroid problems despite the symptoms. Onset of periods
brought constant cramps and heavy menstrual bleeding; I was put on the pill aged
11, married and started a family at 19, but the first two pregnancies ended in
miscarriages. Aged 28 I had three tonsils removed (two is normal); they found my
lingual thyroid. Blood tests showed I was coping well; no medication was offered.
At 39 I had a prolapsed womb and endometriosis requiring a hysterectomy, followed by
gall bladder removal. My thyroid gland now expanded; new blood tests brought the
response “You are within normal range” – words which haunt me even today. My
thyroid gland was finally killed with radioactive iodine. In an emergency
operation at Guys Hospital my tongue was severed down the centre and the gland
removed. It showed no abnormalities, but had needed help. Now I was prescribed
thyroxine, but guided by blood tests deteriorated until I was almost in a coma.
I developed Fibromyalgia, ME/CFS, I wanted to die. After being housebound for 2
years, I met Dr Peatfield. He prescribed T3; within days I started to recover.
He saved my life and sanity. “Look at the symptoms, not just the blood” he said.
I now run my own helpline and work closely with a variety of experts in the US and
UK. I have gathered a wealth of information, from these doctors and also from my
own experience. I am now back at work nearly full-time and lead a normal life.
I know you will all join Dottye and I in welcoming Linda, who is available to
help provide a UK perspective to visitors to the forum.
34779.2 in reply to 34779.1
Well, I'm not Kris, Leslie, or Angel, but I feel compelled to answer too since
my husband has the same diagnosis. If you read Dr. Jefferies' book, I believe
you'd choose the cortisone (cortisol) over the Prednisone. My husband tried to
get his rheumatologist to prescribe him cortisol and he wouldn't due to fear of a
possibility of osteoporosis. However, he did give him prednisone for a few days.
I don't remember but it was a very short period. Didn't help. If I were you,
I'd push for the cortisol. (ANd my husband will seek out a doctor who will
administer it if it gets worse.)
I'll tell you my husband's experience. The doctor was treating him the same as
for rheumatoid arthritis although the diagnosis is psoriatic arthritis. He was
given sulfasalazine, methotrexate (which is an anti-cancer drug, that they don't
know why it helps, it also weakens the immune system), Vioxx, and folic acid.
(The folic acid may not be such a bad idea. These drugs are so dangerous that
you have to have your liver tested monthly. However, that's better than risking
possible osteoporosis! According to these doctors! Gee whiz, I don't guess the
liver is TOO important!)But my husband was getting sicker and sicker and the pain
wasn't getting any better, so the doctor kept increasing these meds. And he
continued to feel worse and worse. He was seriously considering retiring on
disability. He'd come home from work and go straight to bed or sit around silent
because he was in so much pain. Then I shared with him an article from Chet
Day's site, (go to chetday.com and search "arthritis". There's a good article
by a woman who improved her arthritis. ) Also I had already been following the
Hallelujah Diet, (www.hacres.com). So he stopped taking the drugs the doctor
gave him, began to take the Barleygreen and carrot juice from the H. diet.
He's not real strict on the rest of the diet, except for excluding dairy foods.
He's found that red meat causes flare ups too. Anyway, he remembered something
he'd learned when he took Tai Chi lessons. It's called Qi Gong. He said it
takes awhile to really learn it but when the pain comes in his hands or elsewhere,
he practices the Qi Gong and it goes away. He also takes LiquidMinerals and
Glucosamine, also liquid form, that you put in water. And he takes ginseng and
royal jelly, it's a liquid too. He purchased it at an oriental grocery MUCH
cheaper than a health food store. He also takes CoQ10 now, SlowMag
(calcium,magnesium). I feel like I might be leaving something out. But he's
exercising now ALOT too. He wasn't able at all when he was taking those drugs.
Now he's full of energy, rarely has pain and is working overtime at work! A total change in
him. He went back to the doctor and told him he stopped the drugs, who then said
you'll be back. He said the meds would be out of his system in a month and he'd be
hurting again. That was 2 or 3 months ago. We are hoping this continues. You have
to make your own decisions concerning treatment. But I thought you'd want to know
the other side of the story as well as what your doctor will probably tell you.
From other posts I've read of yours, you'd be wise to push for that cortisol!
Good luck and God bless you!
34779.3 in reply to 34779.1
With my recent change-over from prednisolone to hydrocortisone, i would
HIGHLY recommend hydrocortisone over pred.
Reason being : my thyroid started working a LOT better when i switched.
Yes, i need more salt now that i'm on HC than i did on pred, but HC is
what the body makes, HC is what the body needs.
Pred forces the cortisol up and forces the blood sugar and blood pressure up (
too high in my opinion) but it does that because that's what it was designed
in some lab to do, plus relieve inflammation.
HC does it because thats what its meant to do in the body, it wasnt
manfactured for it, it just does it, its like a key and the human body
a lock. It FITS.
If you get a choice, get HC and eat lots of salt.
BTWm i think you asked a question about thyroid being cured by cortisone -
I have read a website yesterday, whose link i cant remember (if i do find it
again, i will email you) that mentioned that 20some % of Addisonians have
thyroid dysfunction, and lots of times, the thyroid gets sorted by sorting
the adrenals, ie putting a person on the appropriate amount of cortisone.
Matt, best of luck mate. You been to hell and back too, I hope this rheumy
sorts you out, and even if you get your meds from a roundabout way like i did
(I've never had a diagnosis of adrenal probs) then thats how you get it.
Take what you can get, m8!
A Yank in the UK<
34779.4 in reply to 34779.1
Ditto. I would recommend hydrocortisone over prednisone as well. Dr.
Jefferies explains in his book that you have a much higher chance of bad
side effects from a prednisone like drug rather than a regular hydrocortisone.
As you know, there is a very short half life where hydrocortisone is
concerned but the same is not true for the others like pred. The difference
is while hydrocortisone has to be replaced several times a day the prednisone
does not because it maintains your cortisol levels for a 24 hour period. Your
cortisol is not naturally meant to stay at the same number for a 24 hour period.
On the other side, the question is if you request hydrocortisone they may just
give you a small dose in the morning and that probably would not do it where your
other problems are concerned. However, if you got pred they would most likely
give you the .05 dose which would be close to what you would need in hydrocortisone.
They are much better versed in giving drugs like pred than they are with
hydrocortisone. So, you may run into a doctor who thinks if he gives you 10 or
15mgs of hydro once in the morning that that's equivalent and it isn't since it
does need to be replaced all through the day. With the pred you don't have that
worry as you will get a dose that will be enough to last through your day.
So, while hydrocortisone would be preferable it might not be in this case where
you are looking to get enough to help your adrenal function depending on what
dose they decide to give you and it may backfire if you request hydro cause they
may only give you one dose in the morning which may not be enough to help any
adrenal problem you may have. So, think about it carefully. Even though hydro
would be preferable, they are not giving you hydro for the reason you want it
which may mean that you don't get enough to help with adrenals. So, even though
it's not the best choice in this case for your purposes you may be better off
with something like pred. but that's only a decision you can make.
Then again, look at Jen's situation. She is doing much better on the
hydrocortisone rather than the pred but she also has someone giving her
enough and is replacing it throughout the day. The real question is if you
request hydro would they give it to you four times a day and I would think in
this case probably not but if you got .05 pred, which is like their standard
dose, that would last you all day and would be equivalent to 25mgs of hydro.
It's a tough call but think about your needs and then make the decision based on
that. In my mind if I was in a situation similar to yours I would probably opt
for the pred just in order to get enough but that's only me.
1082.8 in reply to 1082.1
Around 6 years ago I was diagnosed with depression, although I did not really
think this was correct. I asked several times about a thyroid connection
(my mother had a goitre and had an op to remove half her thyroid),
but was always told the blood tests were normal.
Eventually my health deteriorated to the point where I was diagnosed with ME.
It was through researching ME that I found out more about thyroid illness,
and as a result went to a private doctor. He looked at my blood tests for the
last 5 years and said that, combined with my clinical symptoms, they indicated
hypothyroidism. They were very similar to your results, on one test my TSH was
1.89, on four others it ranged from 2.4 to 3.4 (all considered normal). My T4
over five different tests ranged from just below normal (at 9.8) to just over
normal (at 11). T3 was not tested.
Because my TSH was normal, the T4 results were disregarded by the NHS doctor.
I was told the low T4 couldnt possibly account for my symptoms. The private
doctor took a different view and said blood tests showed an abnormaility, but
even more clear were the physical symptoms (extreme tiredness, carpal tunnell
syndrome, stiff joints, arthritis like pains, thinning eyebrows, very dry skin,
puffy face). I had lesions on my arms (GP said this was the result of self
mutilation!!!), and at various times on other parts of my body inlcuding my
stomach (who self mutilates their stomach!!) I also had excesive ear wax,
and gum disease, resulting in many of my teeth being removed. Doesnt sound
a pretty sight!!!! And I have photos to prove it!!!
Thankfully I found a doctor who recognised the real problem, and treated it.
I have been on Armour for nearly a year (and now I have also added in thryoxine),
and there has been a dramatic improvement. Actually writing this has made me
remember how much I have improved (I have been moaning recently about some
residual problems). My skin lesions have gone (unfortunately I still have some
scarring, but I dont get remarks about it now like I used to), I have so much
energy now, and I feel much better mentally. I still have some problems with
joints and muscles (stiff and some aches), but I have only been on medication
for 10 months, compared to many years of being ill.
Sorry for such a long message, but I hope this convinces you that you need to
get to the bottom of your health problems, and that you cant always trust your
GP to know what is wrong. With something like thyroid illness I think you really
have to make the financial sacrifice and get a private doctor to examine you,
from my experience and that of many others, NHS doctors just arent knowledgeable
enough to deal with this.
My mother had a goitre for many years, but nothing was done until she devveloped
heart disease,and had to have a triple heart by pass - they heart doctor said her
thyroid had to be operated on as well. Since getting my thyroid problem diagnosed
my father has been diagnosed with Alzheimers and Parkinsons, and had a major heart
attack two years ago. All of these health problems are linked to untreated thyroid
illness, particularly heart disease. More recently we were told that he has had an
underactive thyroid for 'some time' which has not been treated. And now my sister
has been sent for tests for an overactive thyroid. Also, both my children have mild
learning difficulties, my son has been diagnosed dyslexic, again associated with
thyroid problems in the mother.
So, dont let your problems go untreated. If it is thyroid illness you need to
get it properly treated or you could be storing up problems for later life.
I wish you all the best. Let us know how things go.
30095.1195 in reply to 30095.1188
I just found out that my estradiol was less than10 on day 14 while on Yasmin.
I don't understand how that's possible. Can you explain? I am 45, perimenopausal
I have since switched to 1mg estrace.
Thanks for all your insight and help.
30095.1205 in reply to 30095.1195
Those pills suck! A LOT of women are totally suppressed on it because they can't
extract the estradiol and the progestin dumps down what little they could be making.
Plain old estradiol is the right choice...repeat studies to be sure you are getting
an adequate level.
30095.1206 in reply to 30095.1198
Read your directions! You take tagamet BEFORE you eat...not after...sigh..bonk...
but otherwise you only need it 3 times a day....not EVERY time you eat.
30095.1214 in reply to 30095.1210
Cant say..crystal ball broken...but you need to get the thyroid fixed first...
then see what happens.
Was wondering what type of range our results can fall in for us w/ non-addison's,
'adrenal fatigue' syndrome? I've asked my drs. how bad, or not-so-bad
these numbers were, and haven't gotten a clear answer yet...
Would love to hear from other's who have had this test done.
I had this test run a little over a year ago, and have hashimotos, am 40 yr old
mother of 3, and have been dealing w/ new and increasing symptoms over the past
2 years. Am currently on 10mg cortef/day (used to be 15mg) and 20mg DHEA
(used to be 10mg)...have been having a difficult lately time determining which
needs more help, thyroid or adrenals...
These were my cortisol numbers:
fasting level at 9am: 10.1 (normal 16-24)
30 min. level: 12.5 (should have gone up by at least 7)
60 min. level: 17.9 ('' 11)
Do these numbers mean that my reserves were low, AND my initial levels?
How severe do you folks think these numbers are?
I really don't like taking lots of meds. And my thyroid has been testing
pretty close to normal. (I take .5mg levoxyl and 30mg armour/day). But my gut
instinct is telling me that my adrenals may be worse than we thought. But, I've
also slowly been putting on a few pounds, so don't want to make the wrong move in
terms of meds...
Thanks so much,
Apr-23 1:53 am
34726.2 in reply to 34726.1
I took my expensive ACTH Stim test almost two months ago, but I goofed and took
my Armour 2.5 hours before the first blood draw, I was naive and was not informed
that meds count in the fasting period. I believe that stressed my adrenals and
the test is a bit skewed. Also I was starving and had a tiff with my husband on
the way there, more stress. They had me wait an extra hour before the injection
because they forgot to order the ACTH shot, and I was worried about my baby who was
with my husband and probably wanting to nurse! I actually ended up fainting on the
last draw. However, I still did not double eventhough my baseline was high enough
to be considered normal. The endo that I was seeing at the time said I was 'normal'
and 'did not look like I had adrenal problems.' He obviously could not see into my
mind or feel my backache or my low temp chills! New doctor is testing me more and
I am going to start extra vitamins & herbs, etc...
30 min 26.99
60 min 33.57
Even the product inserts for thyroid medicines say that uncorrected adrenal
problems can be intensified by taking thyroid hormone and should be addressed first.
I am scared to go off thyroid meds though, but will be asking my doctor in May.
Did you start taking the cortef/DHEA after on thyroid meds? Just curious as to what
the best approach is.
From: BLBRMTH4 Apr-23 9:23 am
34726.3 in reply to 34726.1
Please find someone to help you. Those numbers are not good.
Your baseline is below even the normal range. Most people with mild AI at
least fall in range but on the low side. Your numbers after the stim are at the
very least supposed to double. Yours didn't even do that at either the 30 or
60 minute draws. Those results are definitely indicative of adrenal problems
regardless of what you have been told. Find an endo who knows what they are
doing and knows about this stuff. I certainly can't tell you the severity but
it certainly looks like your adrenals might be a problem for sure.
Apr-23 10:23 am
To: BLBRMTH4 (4 of 16)
34726.4 in reply to 34726.3
Thanks for your feedback. I have been seeing a good GP, (she is the one who
suggested we test my adrenals before going any further w/ thyroid treatment -
I have hashimotos). I have been on cortef since then. Had been taking 15-20mg/day,
but have recently been taking 10mg/day (don't know yet if this is a good idea),
since I started adding in 2 herbal adrenal support capsule/day, and doubling my
DHEA up to 20mg (my last test a month ago showed it was at the very bottom of the
normal range 200, range 200-300).
The reason I posted this question was to try and get an idea of how close to
total adrenal colapse, if at all, I was when this test was done. Because I haven't
been feeling a whole lot better on these meds, and asked my dr. a few weeks ago
if she thought we should redo the cort. stim. test, to see if my adrenals were
actually worse now, rather than better...she replied that we knew that they were
'shot', and that I should just continue on my meds, and incorporate some mind/body
work, such as yoga, and grief counseling, etc., then see how I felt in a few months.
I agreed w/ her assessment.
However, I took the questionnaire in the new book 'Adrenal Fatigue' recently...
my score was off the charts...I think it was 163. So I have been wondering if
it is possible for one's adrenals to have gotten worse, even while on cortef,
and if I may need more...I've had a few scary episodes the past year, while
having a cold, one coughing spell landed me in the ER - due to the fact that I
started graying out, BP was sky high, oxygen was OK, but hands and face started
going numb! Very scary! It took me days to feel better. So I'm really wondering
what's up with this little guys!
From: BLBRMTH4 Apr-23 12:10 pm
34726.5 in reply to 34726.4
OK Mary maybe your situation is similar to mine. I just got back from Dr.
Friedman in LA and this is what he told me. Contrary to what Jefferies says in
his book that unless you have Addison's (and by that I mean complete, total
failure because let's face it anyone with any degree of deficiency has
Addison's it's just the degree of it that's different) that you don't need
anything but cortisol. Dr. Friedman doesn't agree. He feels that you have to
balance all the adrenal hormones and in my case he said that I am very low on
Aldosterone and for that reason I cannot maintain the proper mineral/fluid balance
which he believes is the cause of most of my symptoms. He says that the low bp,
dizziness etc is due to an aldosterone deficiency.
He told me that he sees this all the time. He has people with Addison's come
in and they still feel like hell despite the fact that they are taking tons of
cortisol. So, he said what happens is he now has someone who has Cushing's and
Addison's at the same time because they don't have good mineral/fluid balance but
they're getting overdosed on cortisol.
Now, he is not by any means saying I don't need cortisol. He believes I do as
he said those levels are to low as well but what he's doing with me is balancing
the aldosterone first by giving me florinef and then he said that that should cut
down on the overall dose of cortisol that I need. So, if you're still having a
problem ask to have your aldosterone and renin levels checked. This is what he
did with me and said that this is where the problem will show if you have the
aldosterone deficiency. He also told me that where the adrenals are concerned
the last hormone to go is the cortisol. So, you will be depleted of all the
others before the cortisol and most doctors are concerned with the cortisol moreso
than the other hormones. He said if you check the others first you can diagnose
the Addison's long before the persons cortisol goes.
So, maybe you need something like florinef at this point moreso than more
cortisol but you'd have to get tested to find this out. As far as your bp,
what was it like before you ever took any cortisol????
Apr-23 3:32 pm
34726.6 in reply to 34726.5
This is fascinating...I was just talking to a friend about my request to my
dr. to recheck my adrenal function...explaining to him that the reason I was
wanted to do this is in case I were to suffer a major virus/illness/accident,
and my adrenals are much worse off than we thought (not quite addison's, but
VERY low), then what would happen to me???
I've been reading Christianne Northrup's new book, about menopause, most of
this morning...and it's 600 pages of pure information...fascinating as well...
I've also recently borrowed, and returned, the new book 'Adrenal Fatigue'...
but I'll have to read up on aldosterone...and what it does.
Does it make sense if my DHEA and testosterone numbers are low, even after having
been on 10mg DHEA/day, and my prog. a bit low, and my cholesterol extremely low,
that the aldosterones are low as well? Is that consistent w/ the whole picture?
And what is renin? I've never heard of that.
PS my blood pressure used to always be low...102/65, 112/70, etc.
It's only after starting on cortef it's bounced around a bit...never
really higher than 130/85, but after a minute of sitting, is back down
to 117/78, etc. It was only up in the 130's for a while a month or two
ago, after bouncing around w/ thyroid and adrenal meds...it's back down
between 110 and 120/70's...
Apr-23 3:33 pm
To: BLBRMTH4 (7 of 16)
34726.7 in reply to 34726.5
PS What is florinef? Is it a steroid, or hormone?
From: BLBRMTH4 8:26 am
34726.8 in reply to 34726.6
Ok Renin. I don't know that I can explain it right but I'll try and you're
probably better off looking it up. It's a precursor to angiotensin and has
something to do with aldosterone. Renin is put out by the kidneys and there
is some kind of sensor and depending on what the renin is doing they can pick
up problems with the aldosterone. This I don't fully understand myself but basically
that's what it is. He said he expects my renin and aldosterone to be low.
He said you can also have high renin which means something too but that's not
what he expects to see.
Florinef is a mineralcorticoid and does what aldosterone is supposed to do which
is help you maintain the mineral and fluid balance which is a problem for people
with weak adrenal function.
To: BLBRMTH4 (9 of 16)
34726.9 in reply to 34726.8
Did Dr. Freidman talk about CAH or LOCAH? I've been rereading stuff on LOCAH
lately and 3 out of the 4 types show low levels of aldosterone and cortisol.
The other variety has high aldosterone levels with low cortisol. The three types
with low aldosterone usually are accompanied by low BP whereas the high aldosterone
type presents with high BP. You have to test for the specific enzyme deficiency to
pinpoint the cause.
Best in health,
From: BLBRMTH4 10:28 am
34726.10 in reply to 34726.9
You wouldn't believe his lab profiles. In fact, he has 15 different profiles
for LOCAH alone. He has all sorts of tests for receptors as well as antibodies
to everything. I've never seen an endos lab sheet quite like his. I don't think
there's anything endocrine related that he's missed as far as what tests can be
used. He also did some of my tests in a way I've never had them done before.
He does not think I have LOCAH. He thinks I have Addison's. However, he did
test my 17 OH-Progesterone in the stim he said to just make sure but that is
not what he believes I have.
Yes, I'm aware of that and I have been tested for them before and told that
I don't have it and I brought all those results with me. So, he tested the
17 OH-Progesterone because based on previous results of my aldosterone along
with my bp if I were to have LOCAH I would most likely have the 21-hydroxylase
deficiency but that is not what he thinks I have anyway. So far, his diagnosis
is Addison's with Hashimoto's, polyglandular failure syndrome.
34726.11 in reply to 34726.10
Can we clone him and have him live on the East coast? If I should ever get
enough money to see an excellent doctor, he'd be the one! Why can't other
endos be this thorough? Why did I have two endos, back to back, tell me there
was nothing wrong except my ongoing Hashi's, which they told me was fibromyalgia?
And they wouldn't test me when I presented the ongoing symptoms, my entire history,
Best in health,
To: BLBRMTH4 (12 of 16)
34726.12 in reply to 34726.10
Wow. Just when I thought I was getting good at figuring all this out!!!
What is LOCAH? Where can I learn more about aldosterone, etc?
I just woke this morning, feeling dizzy and tired, as usual, and was surprised
to find that all of the food I ate last night just passed right through me!
What in the world is going on here??? (I was just reading yesterday on Dr.
Gillespie's board the threads on gastric dumping - pleasant term, huh? -
which I found, BTW, after getting your post, & doing a search on florinef...)
Anyhow, I am definitely tired of feeling lousy for 2 years - esp. now since
it's starting to border on incapacitating at times...
I have a few questions for you, after reading your posts... Do you think, based
on my cort. stim. test numbers a year ago that: I simply have 'adrenal fatigue'
as my dr. dx, or something beyond that? I thought Addison's had to be total shut
down of the adrenals - like ZERO production of anything. Because I really am scared
that they may be so shot now, that if I were in an extreme situation, my body could
go into shock. And I don't wear any bracelet, or anything. Should I? Do you?
(Last year, while watching the Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot", after all the
intense scenes, and feeling adrenaline course through my body, when they shot
the young son, I had to ask my husband to turn it off, because at that point,
I couldn't breath, and had to talk in clipped phrases...it was very scary...also,
landed in an ER last January after a coughing bout from a cold, after feeling like
I was passing out at home, and hands and face starting tingling and going numb!
Now this isn't normal, right???!!! After an emotional upset, it takes me days to
start feeling normal again.)
In most other ways, I'm pretty healthy! I need some muscle toning and exercise,
but otherwise I'm pretty solid, until the last two years that is, when things
have started to go down hill so rapidly! And I'm sure you know how this stuff
can affect your moods/emotional strength, outlook, etc. It can be so overwhelming,
and scary...esp. w/ children to take care of.
OK, I'd better go for now. But I look forward to your reply. I also just wrote
Dr. Gillespie a medium/long email, to see if she can see any female hormone
connections as well.
To: BLBRMTH4 (13 of 16)
34726.13 in reply to 34726.10
Sounds like you might finally get fixed up ;-) How did you find this one?
He might look at your son too?
From: BLBRMTH4 12:31 pm
34726.14 in reply to 34726.11
I hear you. I have been to at least 10-12 endos with the same test results as
I gave him and none of them ever said a word or picked it up. He's the first one.
Well, Jefferies did but besides him nobody ever said a word.
From: BLBRMTH4 12:58 pm
To: IVYSMOMMY unread (15 of 16)
34726.15 in reply to 34726.12
LOCAH is late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia which is a genetic enzyme
deificiency in the cortisol pathway. There is a block in the pathway that
produces cortisol but not in the pathway that produces androgens so in an
attempt to produce cortisol they overproduce androgens so they have low
I don't know. From what I'm getting from Friedman he doesn't term it mild adrenal
insufficiency. At least not in my case as he believes it is permanent and will
continue to progress rather than stay at this stage. So, I can only comment on
this regarding myself. He thinks I have Addison's but that I just haven't reached
the 0 cortisol level yet. All my other adrenal hormones are quite low and he said
the cortisol is the last to go so it looks like i'm just at the point where it
hasn't completely reached 0 yet. How long I'll stay there is the question. I
was talking with a friend of mine who is in med school yesterday and she told me
that they just learned about this and she said it was quite interesting.
She said what she's seen and what she's learned is that Addison's works differently
for men and women.
She said in men you usually see overnight failure.
Like they just wake up one day and they have no function whatsoever.
She also said on the other hand in women it's usually a progressive thing that
takes place over years and that it's more common to see the men get it overnight
while with women it seems to be more of a long process. I thought that was
interesting because it does seem that the women do seem to go down over a
longer period and I didn't know that there was actually anything taught on
this or that this fact was even recognized but she said yes, it was and they
were taught this by one of the doctors. Now, how true it is and how many doctors
know this I don't know but she did say that they were taught that there are
differences in the progress of the disease between men and women.
I always thought that it was total shutdown as well but apparently with my
diagnosis I guess it all depends on the doctor. As I said, he doesn't believe
in my case that it will be reversed and expects it to progress it's just how long
that will take to happen that's in question. Now, you have to realize I have
had this for years. This has not been a quick process. I've had abnormal adrenal
results for 16 years. I don't know about your stim. All I can tell you is that
your results were worse than mine. I have extremely low baselines that run from
6-9 usually but I do at least make the proper rise on the stim. I don't believe
you did. That is supposedly a clearcut indication. Again though it's one of
those things that depends on who's looking at your tests and what they believe
and personally I think alot of it depends on how much experience they've had with
the condition as well. He thinks the only reason I was able to get the proper
rise is the dose of ACTH I was given and he doesn't think I will get that rise
on the 1mg test which he did . So, we'll see. You didn't get that rise on the
regular test so I would guess that if you had the test he performed on me your
results would be even lower.
I also wrote to Larrian and she was the one who said that it seemed like I
definitely had an adrenal problem. Now, I knew this but her confirmation and
the fact that she thought Friedman would be able to diagnose it is what made
me go to him. She said that he is the only endo she knew of that recognized
this type of problem and would catch it in the earlier stages.
From: BLBRMTH4 1:01 pm
34726.16 in reply to 34726.13
Well, let's hope so. Actually, I heard Larrian mention him quite awhile ago and
then I checked out his website. I then wrote to him and explained my situation
and he said he was familiar with it. I did this well over a year ago but i'm not
the traveler and hate flying so never went. Finally, I decided to just do it.
I explained everything about the kids and I had them with me and he did look
at them. He also tested them for everything he did on me and he called me
yesterday and so far he's confirmed that both have hypothyroidism.
Still waiting on the adrenal tests but yes, I am very happy that he looked at
the kids as well.
33287.18 in reply to 33287.17
40mg prednisone?! No wondow you feel like crap - the human body makes the equivalent
of 5 - 7.5mg of prednisone per day... any more than that and you're on 'high dose
steriods' which puts you at risk for diabetes, hypertension, osteoporosis, moonface,
Buddha belly and lots of stretch marks with weight gain!!!
Never take more than 7.5mg prednisone for adrenal problems. Any more than that
and you're risking Cushingoid problems.
33287.20 in reply to 33287.13
Myself i think DHEA is a waste of time medically for Adrenals with Replacement
Hormones. DHEA is an unknown and the way it converts (estrogen men) and women
(testosterone) i think its best left alone.
I have to disagree with you there. In my case, I was tested and was low on
DHEA as well as testosterone. I was prescribed testosterone, but for economic
reasons, I wasn't able to use it long enough to get results. I DID however go on
50mg DHEA daily.
Fast Forward to a later time and a recent test on my Free Testosterone and
DHEAs shows that I am in the middle of the normal range for both.
While it is true that DHEA is a precursor to both estrogen and Testosterone,
that doesn't mean it behaves one way in males and another way in females when
used in the right doses (i.e. the smallest effective dose). I believe that
the results you describe are due to excessive doses taken by people who don't
My theory: Negative feedback systems in the male body keep testosterone from
being overproduced and the excess DHEA is more likely to be converted to Estrogen
when there is too much DHEA. The opposite is true in women, but again this is
only when the dose of DHEA provides more than the body needs.
33287.22 in reply to 33287.18
I was also put on Prednisone for RA and my first week dosage was 20mg, then 15
for a week, then 10 for a week and then 5.
I think possibly the smaller dosage is for those who have to take it all the
time and the larger dosage is to get in there, get the problem taken care of
and get back out.
In my particular case, it was to get rid of lots of inflammation.
33287.23 in reply to 33287.20
You might be right with DHEA - DHEA soo new medically i have no idea. Myself i
have brown rash on skin (ACTH related i think) and thats like
'He requires cortisone.'
So for Addison cases (100% adrenal crash) i think its best skipped.
thats my personal opinion. i know for a FACT that at least androgens
I KNOW Testosterone. i feel COMFORTABLE with Testosterone. and Testosterone
proven bascially. Now the hard part to convince the endo!
dunno myself - but i "Feel" that certain people are dominant with hormones.
Myself its Adrenals. Can feel the POWER and Ability Adrenals doo and provide
My case i have at least One Adrenal down. i know since it HURTS. Apply pressure
to it and i scream and wince. i do it at least once a day to remind myself to
and my cortisone at 400. i think its 1 adreal functioning and i am scared what
should happen with the other Failed! i feel miserable enough already. (naseua now)
Myself i would rather balance testosterone and cortisone 1:1 at 800 for both!
(thats maximum limits)
Thanks for the information - am new to this hormone game mother nature plays
daily with us. will bear that in mind with DHEA in future. thanks
33287.28 in reply to 33287.26
You are so right about the 40mg of Predisone. gulp.
She should call her doctor immediately and ask him if he gave her the wrong
dosage and how her face is becoming moon in appearence.
If he doesn't lower it, then she should do it herself......most gradually.
Unbelievable some of the screw ups doctors do....and get away with.
33287.29 in reply to 33287.28
I'm suppose to go down from 20mg (now) to 10mg tuesday, then off completely
the next tuesday. But from what I hear I wonder if it will be safe to go from
10mg to 0--I have to go in the the doc next Monday, don't you think I shold try
to talk him into letting me go down from 10mg to 5mg for an extra week? I can't
wait to get off the stuff completely, but I don't want to get sicker than I
already am. The biggest mistake I made--and I wish everyone could be made aware
of this--is that I didn't read up on prednisone--everything I could find on
it--BEFORE I agreed to take it. My gut instinct told me not to take it. But like
most people I trusted my doctor.Before taking anything--unless it's an emergency
or something very, very minor, check it out!!!! I started learning more about it
after I started getting sick from it. Before I knew only that it is widely used for
a host of disorders, etc. etc. and it the drug book didn't make it sound that bad.
Now I know that you can't just rely on your doctor making the best decisions as
a matter of faith and a second opinion is sometimes a very good thing to have.
Once I got into this, there was no way out and I have to stick it out, I feel
very trapped. And after I started learning about this I can't believe that he
would give me such a huge dose of this stuff hen he's not even sure what's
wrong with me! I came in with strong signs of low adrenal, hypothryoidism and
a sore elbow. He found a high degree of inflammation in my body--but he doesn't
know where it's coming from. He had done some routine blood-work and didn't
even test me for adrenal problems. I still don't feel a dose that high was
justified. It was more than likely coming from my elbow and he could of injected
it instead of filling me full of it. I hope this never happens to anyone else on
the board. I don't know how I could get through this without the rest of you
being so supportive. I really can't thank you enough. Kimberly.
Apr-14 5:35 pm
33287.30 in reply to 33287.29
Oh geez.... yes please do ask him to allow you to taper it down slower.
Or if you have the extra pills just do it without bothering to ask him.
He sounds like a quack. All that 'inflammation' he found was probably myxedema -
non pitting edema (water retention which can cause inflammation) - which
is another word for hypothyroidism! Lord I want to strangle your doc.
Please find another one right away.. this one is going to kill someone.
33287.31 in reply to 33287.21
Well, so far its a roller coaster ride. After increasing from 15 mg of cortef
to 20 mg per day, I seemed to be getting about all the benefit I was going to
get - somewhat better sleep, but still all the hypothyroid symptoms. SO I went
ahead and started the Armour.
Felt pretty good for about a week, felt alive and alert, not so tired all the
time, even lost 4.5 lbs (of water weight). Then, all the hypot symptoms were
back with a vengeance. Weight was (and still is) fluctuating 5 to 6 lbs in the
same day, up and down. Fatigue is much worse - can't get through the day without
a 20 to 30 minute nap. That's in the MORNING, around 1030 to 1130. Most folks
I have heard with this problem say they crash in the afternoon. But noooooo,
I gotta march to that different drummer's beat, and crash in the MORNING! LOL!
I think the edema MAY be due to a dosage increase to 30 mg in the cortef
(while on antibiotic therapy for a sinus infection I've had since December
that flared up). Edema is a side effect of cortef, or hypokalemia is a side
effect of cortef therapy and edema is a side effect of hypokalemia, but then
edema is ALSO a hypothyroid symptom. Maybe its due to all three. >:D At any rate
the cortef will drop back down to 20 mg in a couple of days, after I take the
last antibiotic capsule. I also started a potassium supplement in case of
hypokalemia - don't know if they're any good (potassium supplements, I mean) but
I figure its not likely to hurt.
That first week on the Armour I even had an appetite (I now know my lack of
appetite is because I don't digest food very well - 9 to 10 hours later,
lunch is still there ...) But its back to business as usual with that too.
I ate a moderate amount for lunch today and spent the rest of the day (heck,
even now, 12 hours later) walking around feeling like a grape about to pop out
of its skin.
The doc told me to double the Armour, to 2 grains per day, so I went up to
1.5 grains last week - some initial improvement, was able to get through the
day without a nap - but today it was nappy time again. Tomorrow marks the end
of a week on 1.5 grains and I will start 2 grains Armour tomorrow (today? Tuesday).
I'm sure I'm not saying anything lots of other people haven't been through too.
I don't know if 2 grains of Armour per day is a lot or not, but I was worried to
double the dose all at once, so I ramped up.
I never liked roller coasters all that much even when I was younger. LOL!
BTW, I did start to have a little bit of weird (not normal for me type) acne,
so I dropped the DHEA from 50 mg per day to 25 mg per day. I can't say whether
or not its doing any good, but it doesn't seem to be doing any harm, anyway.
Thanks for the input.
33287.32 in reply to 33287.25
I'm interested in what you were saying about glucagon.
My daughter is hypoglycemic. She had a low serum cortisol. Didn't stim on an
acth stim test. The next test was a glucagon test. It is similar to "the gold
standard - insulin test" for determining addison's. Instead of injecting
insulin then reading cortisol levels, they injected glucagon. This did cause
cortisol to rise and she was pronounced normal. It made me wonder if she isn't
producing glucagon. What made me decide this isn't so is the rise in cortisol
is brought on after the blood sugar drops, hers went below 40.
I would be interested in your thoughts. She is 12 btw;-) Her problems started
33287.33 in reply to 33287.32
i have personal xperience here - i ride the wild swings with the blood sugar
(UP i am Happy - DOWN watchout! cranky) Adrenals "control" sugar
http://www.myvits.com says so - hypoglecimia is a prime sign with adrenals
For me - its Testosterone/Cortisone required. 1:1 Funny enough according to
'the steroids game' by charles berkley a male supposed to have testosterone
to epitestoserone of 1:1. Point is Sex steroids and cortisone must be 1:1 to
And i think it was full blown (adrenals) with me at 12 myself. Before High School
- i had improved threwout from kindergartern (was really anti-social - liked my
own company) to yr 6 and i peaked in that summer. Crashed with Yr 7 onwards
A book called "the Zone" by dr barry spears xplains the Glucagon : Insulin
pretty well. Xcept beware - he sounds fantacial with Cortisone Suppression
i would recommend "T4 alone". Since with correct cortef (hydrocortisone)
therapy - there should be no conversion issues between T4 and T3. thats cortisone
So its T4 raw product - and cortisone knocks out TBP (that Carry Thyroid) and
makes it avaible to the body - thats where many on this board have never thought
on Thyroid must be FREE
and liver with cortisone should convert the Free T4 into Free T3 as well.
Thats one of the many roles liver play. Also in the liver Growth Hormone converts
into IGF-1 thats important for GROWTH threwout Puberty. To develop the kid into an
As far as times go - i saw on a board with Addisons (Adrenals) that the times are
8 AM to 12 PM (50%) of dose. 25% between 12 & 4 PM and 4 PM - 8 PM 25%
Should you manage to make her sleep between 10 PM and 8 AM mornings - most
'Growth Spurts' would be likely - thats if height important to her. 10 hrs sleep
have heard that compliant from ladies - am too small!
thats the adrenal cycle and thats when "Thyroid" should be most active as well.
Sure would xplain the energy *MOST* People can count on to start the day!
Of course since she flunked the ACTH stim test she would be on Cortef (cortisone)-
i would recommend she do an TRT (thyroid releasing Test) This test stimulates the
thyroid with a synetic and see how she responds. i bet she flunks it as well!
See an endocronoligist with that test. Really important to have cortisone & Thyroid
And that TRT test can monitor her requirements for Thyroid Dosage threwout time.
Needs to be INCREASED each year
Since she would require cortisone (cortef) the TSH test that MOST doctors
normally run on her would be "wrong" for Adrenal Hypothyrodism. Since it would
be SECONDARY Hypothyrodism from the Pituary. Unavoidable with Cortef *sigh*
Read Dr Wagner "Solved the riddle of illness" - says in one chapeter that
gondotrophins (sex hormones like estrogen) cannot be made without adequate thyroid.
Gonads = sex glands. Trophinins = Growth. food for thought there.
Sorry soo long and complex. i would like to see your daughter mature into a lovely
lady with a HEALTHY physique. Between 13 & 25 is MAXIMUM Development
Really you have one chance - so make it count! I think even now with adequate
therapy for me - there would be issues for decades to come. will bear it
To avoid cortisone overkill - 50% of cortisone released at daytime 8
AM to 12 PM it peaks. and it declines for the rest of the afternoon
25% next level between 12 & 4 and a further 25% downwards.
http://www.addisons.org.au got that advice from. assuming you like hydrocortisone
cortisone is ONLY deadly when you suppress your own adrenals. adrenals make
estrogen in woman - and THATS released at nitetimes (when you sleep). Kinda
tricky since you require cortisone as well into the afternoon and into nitetime.
Most people haev such poor adrenals most would never miss the small amount thats
you make 800 a day max - take say 75% of normal (thats the thyroid people say)
and its 600 max a day you should make (AM). stick to them guidelines i doubt
you have issues. interesting enough - moderate cortisone should improve bone
density threw its impact on "free estrogen" boost into the morning. Yes BOOST
i think Estrogen made into the nitetime & protects body with regards to no food
for next 9 hrs! since it can promote blood sugar - i think its wise to have blood
sugar to RISE when you have no food - so it suppports your body when you sleep!
Body and Brain MUST have Steady Sugar. (dunno with cortisone here & nitetimes)
and when you "awake" cortisone there to release it (threw insulin) insulin frees
sex steroids (estrogen) from SHBG (transports and travels threw the blood) with
regards to the liver. and expell estrogen into the blood threwout the daytime.
Thus you can see mother natura pretty wise to keep estrogen under control unlike
other woman (who take HRT) and have 3 X breast cancer and other female cancers.
As estrogen "free" its used up (cortisone) kills it. so say you have 600 morning
(max) would require say 600 estrogen. thats base on idea that body has negative
feedback loop that changes the orginial hormone releaser into inhibits itself once
The "normal" is 400 for both (mine testosterone/cortisone ratio) personally i
never feel too crash hot on this level (for me). personally i think i will have
to find my own "level". thinks 600 looks promising (AM). (wants an immune boost -
T & B cells)
If i done my homework right - that should max out my T-Cells at 11 - 000 level.
and B - Cells as well. (seems my T4 (thyroid) and immune system go hand in hand)
(adrenals relate to b-cells)
note thats for mornings - afternoon i dunno xactly how thats supposed to workout
bodybuilders are also fools. (with males)
interesting enough - estrogen can promote dopamine. i would recommend it do so
with cortisone. progesterone i could not recommend (it turns into cortisone anyway)
Note this theory sounds good - make sure you do bloodwork to make sure it runs
smoothly - i need to study the adrenal clock more myself! i work on rough ideas.
xacts i dunno! and i dunno have a lab so i cannot do labwork for you!
on the smokes - it rises blood sugar and that could be cortisone related (since
blood cotisone normally rises with sugar) so do the Adrenals and its easy to quit
i should know - when mine work right (adrenals) - i can kill mine own habits
(overnite). Adrenals Crash and i start to crave stimulants
note this is guidelines - nice on paper and my musings on adrenal therapy. l
eave the xact sums into qualified endo hands who can monitor you.
Please respect the body clocks - and this idea of hormones constantly into the
body at one level is BAD. That estrogen could cause heart attack threw insulin
IF stimulated constantly. so nature keeps it SHORT (4 hrs) maximum peak and lowers
it threwout the rest of the day to allow sleep and make hormones threwout sleep.
best times - 9 PM (sleep) to 6 AM (9 hr sleep) wake at 1st light! (most animals
do xcept humans!) we are pretty unnatural.
33287.39 in reply to 33287.36
I tried to do it scientifically.
I only ended up using it for a week because i met the right doctor who gave me a
script for prednisolone shortly thereafter.
I decided that if a 15 gram tube had 150mg of hydrocortisone in it total, then
a human being would need 20 - 30mg (read that from Dr Jefferies) for replacement,
so i used an appropriate portion of the tube to equate to that amount of
milligrammes, under the assumption of course that it all got through the skin
I rotated skin sites etc, and never had a single ounce of trouble with it.
However, the GOOD effects were like switching a light on. Within ONE HOUR, i
stopped needing to wee, my blood sugar was above 70 and stayed there, my
headache went, my neck loosened up, and i suddenly felt like i wanted to
live instead of wanting so badly to just die and get it over with.
If you keep the dose around 20mg per day, as Jefferies advises, you won't get
a Buddha belly. I have one already but that's inherited, I had one at birth!!
33287.43 in reply to 33287.41
The shaking and heart pounding is adrenaline, not cortisol.
You wont get any shaking and heart pounding from the cream, in fact, you should
find, if you're suffering frequeny hypoglycaemia, that the hydrocortisone stops
it, and a lot of anxieties and fears, especially the really irrational ones.
Adrenaline forces your body to release sugar from where it is stored. It also
causes your heart to beat faster and your blood pressure to rise. When my late
father in law was taken from aneurysm surgery last month, thats what they had
him on, because his heart wasn't pounding hard enough, adrenaline and
noradrenaline, one to keep his heart forcing blood to his limbs, the other
to keep his blood pressure up.
The cortisol keeps 'gluconeogenesis' ie the creation of sugar, going, and you
won't need the adrenaline, and your body will realise that, and stop releasing
Thats why low adrenal people startle so easily - adrenaline is in their (our)
veins like 24/7. The cortisol will counter that, hence it is called the
'anti-stress' hormone. It also acts exactly opposite insulin, the fat storage
hormone, that robs yourt blood of its sugar and packs it away onto your stomach.
Hence you end up with more free glucose in your blood, hence higher blood sugar,
and no more shakey episodes.
At least thats how i understand it all to be. It works for me, I haven't had a
hypoglycaemic episode since I started taking prednisolone on January, except when
i missed a tablet or didn't take enough.
Dont go with synthetics if you get a choice, from your doctor, get the real
thing, the natural version, hydrocortisone. Believe me, the difference between
HC and prednisolone is astounding; even though the doses i was taking are supposed
to be 'equivalent', they bloody well AREN'T. HC is much more natural, keeps the
blood sugar under a tighter control instead of letting it swing high into diabetic
range sometimes, and feels a helluva lot better than pred did, and pred felt a
helluva lot better than nothing did!
Go with cortef or hydrocortone. Don't get pred. Its annoying taking cortef several
times a day but for what it does for me, its worth it and the cost of the
multi-alarm watch I'm going to have to get to remind me when its cortef-time!!
33287.47 in reply to 33287.46
28 grams? So at 1% that is 280mg in the tube. To get 20mg, you'd need to use
about 1/14 of the tube, in any one given DAY, and for one application, to
divide that up into thirds, to do every 6 or so hours.
In other words, i think you got about 5 times as much as you needed with that
inch of cream.
I too overshot it the first time and ended up bouncing off the walls. I ended up
with about 60mg of HC in one big squirt.
You might try again with an amount the size of, say, a dime, and go from there. ?
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.
I'll take a ticket to that tropical island with you, that sounds IDEAL.
One only needs about 20mg of Hydrocortisone to know whether or not its adrenal
you're suffering, and believe me, you'll know right away...for me the difference
was Jeckyll and Hyde, night and day, but then again, I was also on the point of
collapse when i got right bloody desperate and decided to use the cream while
i waited for my illegally imported prednisolone to arrive from Brasil to save
My need to pee every 10 minutes went, my need to eat sugar every 30 minutes
stopped, some of my silly fears and anxieties went away, i got a better grip
on my emotions, i stopped being paranoid about people conspiring behind my back,
I could tolerate more thyroid med, i stopped having so much damned adrenaline, my
headache relented a bit, my neck muscles loosened up, and I stopped collapsing after
exercise (or something as simple as running for the bus) all in the FIRST DAY -
for me, the drug(s) has been a lifesaver.
My presenting symptoms are:
dark circles under eyes
sensitivity to small changes in thyroid meds (50mcg over a week of T4 has a drastic effect on me),
low blood pressure (haven't check for if it gets lower once I stand up, even when going through a hyper phase)
not coping with stress well (I am hypo at the moment, by the way)
also, a reflexologist once told me that my feet "sweating" while being massaged was a symptom of something being wrong with the adrenals
moody and irritable
salt and sugar cravings
33287.52 in reply to 33287.50
Well if its 1g per 100gs than its 1% tube, most out there on the market are 1% or .5%, I've seen 2% in America but not here in the UK.
So 1% of 20g = 200mg in the tube. You want to try about 20mg so for one given DAY'S application you'd need 1/10 of the tube. Then divide that tenth into thirds because hydrocortisone has a short halflife, and needs to be administered several times a day.
Pick a spot, a thigh or a shin or an arm or something, rub it in real good, wash your fingers afterwards, and let it dry before putting any clothing against it.
If you end up with too much, you'll know it- i went bouncing off walls, totally hyperactive, not hyperthyroid, and wanted to hug and kiss my coworkers.
If you get it just right, you'll feel the relief of some of that fatigue, the brainfog, the stress coping (small things wont drive you up the wall as quickly) etc etc.
Now, hydrocortisone does NOT have much mineralocorticoid properties, so you may find you're still dizzy when you stand - eat more salt. In the package insert I just got from Merck&co about my hydrocortone tablets, it says that usually people who are given hydrocortone are also given 2-6 GRAMMES of sodium chloride (salt) or fludrocortisone, the Na-K balancing replacement for aldosterone (the reason you get dizzy when you stand is a lack of aldosterone).
I hope I've helped?
33287.53 in reply to 33287.51
I would say that personally, I lived on Adrenaline while my adrenals were not making cortisol, so yes, it was a lifesaver, it got me through several rough events, buying me time til i could get my cortisol sorted.
BUT - having it in your veins several times a day because your pancreas overreacted and squirted too much insulin and now you've got no sugar left in your blood ISNT FUNNY.
Adrenaline is a lifesaver, I know, i watched it being used on my LATE father in law after his aneyrusm surgery to try and force his recently heart-attacked heart to work (it didnt in the end, hence the word *late*) - they used adrenaline and noradrenaline to make his heart work faster and keep his blood pressure up.
So i think we all know adrenaline's uses. BUT - having it in your body 24/7, especially while you're trying to sleep, is not good, for your heart, your mind, your sleep, or anything else either.
A Yank in the UK
33287.60 in reply to 33287.59
You certainly sound very hypoadrenal, and yes cortisone would help you. I went to the chemists and bought your bog standard anti-itch cortisone cream, making sure it didn't have anything else in it, just hydrocortisone as active ingredient.
It might help you as it looks like your conversion is off, it may help you to convert, i find all my muscles hurt when my T4 is low, also I'm very tired.
The first time i swallowed a prednisolone tablet (not cortisone i know, but glucocorticoid, and as I was as desperate as you, i took what i could get) these things happened:
I stopped weeing every 10 minutes. I stopped being thirsty enough to drink gallons at a time. my headache let up. My sugar stabilised. My blood pressure stopped dipping quite so low. I felt happier, stronger, stopped crying about everything, stopped feeling helpless, felt like doing something, felt my brain wake. Stopped worrying about my coworkers comspiring against me and plotting to sack me (they weren't but i imagined it all under the influence of adrenaline)
Cortisone will also help you tolerate thyroid medication. I was only able to take 100mcg when i was not having adrenal support, I'm taking the equivalent of 112mcg and am still going up - my body can now take the stress whereas before, it couldn't.
Hydrocortisone, being different than prednisolone, has let me down in the blood pressure department, so i need to increase my salt intake, or get fludrocortisone to balance my fluids.
The cream will signal you if you need the tablets or not. I argued for my treatment with the tablets, in this draconian NHS, just by my scientifically executed success with the cream.
Good luck Matt, I been there, i been suicidal because of the sugar drops and the goddamned adrenaline that would shake my chest and arms as i tried to sleep, 24/7 panicking and worry. I know the desperation. I pray for you that someone in Oz will listen to your pain and help you.
A Yank in the UK
I was diagnosed with Hashimotos about 18 months ago. I started on Oroxine last July I think and now my endocrinologist has upped my dose to 100 mg a day to put me in the higher range of normal. I am being tested for Addisons Disease and my endo told me it is quite common for Hashis to have Addisons as well, the condition when both diseases are present is called "Schmidts Syndrome", I hope I don't have this as well, I have enough trouble remembering to take the oroxine and it seems now I will have to take blood thinning medication cause my platelets are high. Adding to the cocktail will be a regimious (is this a word?) task!!!! Hmmm funnily enough he commented that my skin is very brown and I have "pigmentation" on my face which is almost always present in Addisons Disease, well I am hoping my life long freckles are just that and not this "adrenal insufficiency" disease. Anybody out there have Schmidts Syndrome???? or Addisons Disease on its own. ??
From: EmmaGx (EMMAGX1) Apr-19 11:41 am
To: SABINE631 unread (2 of 14)
34580.2 in reply to 34580.1
Yep- I have PGA1 (It occurred in childhood)
Ammounts to the same thing though I am Hypothyroid, Hypoovarian, with possible Addissons (I am awaiting the test results for a diagnosis).
I have two types of 'freckles' real ones, and ones where my skin isn't white.
34580.3 in reply to 34580.1
My daughter was dx'd with Schmidt's Syndrome(Addison's/Hashi's) 13 years ago, she is now 20. She had the "tanning" of the skin, pigment around the mouth area, knuckles and knees, darkening of the gums, plus a hoist of other serious symptoms, vomitting, diarrha, weight loss, dizziness and others. She became extremely dark. Since she is being treated with cortisone and florinef for the addisons, she is not taking any meds for the hashi's. There will probably come a time when she will need the thyroid replacement meds. Drs. also told us that she may develope other autoimmnune diseases. I also have the hashi's.
From: ON AND ON (KLOGILVIE) Apr-19 8:04 pm
To: EmmaGx (EMMAGX1) (4 of 14)
34580.4 in reply to 34580.2
How do you know what are real freckles? I have had "freckles" my whole life that seem to exponentially increase in numbers from the slightest bit of sun. For the most part I have been very pale and unable to tan. Lately though I have more of a tanning ability - maybe it is just massive freckles/pigmentation? I do notice that I have quite a bit of larger freckles that blend together around my mouth and eyes, less on my checks and practically none on my forehead. Also being that it is cold and dark at this time of year, I am suprised to see that my shoulders are quite dark with freckles like it was Summer. Is this the type of skin darkening that everyone refers to regarding adrenal fatigue?
I checked my eyes and they certainly pulse in response to light, I have hasi, I have all the mental symptoms (panic, depression, phobias), I have tickling feeling right where my adrenals are, and I also discovered I have anemia (getting more tests soon), my cortisol stim test baseline was normal at 18.2 but it did not double so my reserves are low, however I took armour right before the test, as I was naive and didn't understand that I should not take any meds either, that probably raised my cortisol level, I don't know. Next Thurs. the doctor ordered blood cortisol test. He agreed to do saliva next if needed. He said that I may have Schmidt's but needed to to more labs.
It's all very confusing. I am thrilled to have found a board certified holistic internist in my insurance plan, that actually ordered 8 lab tests without me having to ask and actually informed me of Schmidt's instead of me having to beg for attention. I am still scared by this but looking forward to getting a handle on it. My grandmother and great-grandmother had diabetes, I wonder if they had PGA? It is said to be hereditary right?
From: SABINE631 Apr-19 11:10 pm
To: ON AND ON (KLOGILVIE) (5 of 14)
34580.5 in reply to 34580.4
My mother has Diabetes II and from what I have read it is Diabetes 1 that is classified as an autoimmune disease, the latter being a more common adult onset type associated with obesity and is not heredity by genetic association. REgarding the possibility of Schmidts syndrome/adrenal disease and the associated inappropriate tanning and pigmentation of the skin I have also read that this type of skin change is present in 100 percent of patients with Addisons disease. I do have a large mole on my upper left cheek just under my eye that has grown considerably over the last ten years or so, did not notice this until i looked at old photos. I do live in a sub-tropical climate though and I do spend a lot of time in the garden so its really hard to say, the tests will reveal all in time I suppose.
To: ON AND ON (KLOGILVIE) (6 of 14)
34580.6 in reply to 34580.4
Have you seen the symptoms list on Dr Rind's site? http://www.drrind.com/symptoms.asp I have all of the mixed symptoms, my freckles could be normal, but the skin between them is white, and has no pigment. If I forget to put on suntan lotion (factor 35 or more) then I get really dark 'freckles' from my brown bits of skin, and my white bits burn, I also have almost black freckles all year round.
(BUT- I am on no medication at all, and haven't been for five years, despite being Hypothyroid for 16 years, and I am able to loose weight, without trying)
Your Cortisol Stim test shows no response to ACTH, that is the important thing, not what the baseline was. Your doctors do appear to know what they are doing, and they are carrying out the other tests, to check what is working, and what is not. This is important since they have to put you onto the correct medication, in the correct order, they don't just want to rush into anything, and miss something which may be important.
PGA is found in families with a history of auto immune disiese, in particular diabeties.
Good Luck!- And I hope you start to improve soon!
So have you read up about vitiligo? It's a separate auto immune disorder which clusters with all the other ones we experience.
So have you read up about vitiligo? It's a separate auto immune disorder which clusters with all the other ones we experience.
33550.7 in reply to 33550.6
That's a tricky one. My doc used the ACTH stim test. Fasting. They take blood early in the AM, like 8 AM, to get a baseline cortisol level. They inject you with something or other (brain fart, can't remember what) to stimulate your adrenal to release more cortisol. 30 minutes later they do another blood draw to get another cortisol level, and they may do this again at 60 mins (mine didn't, partly, I think, because there was nowhere left to jab me).
The baseline should be AT LEAST 12 to 15, according to Teitelbaum/Jeffries. The 30 min draw should AT LEAST double the baseline, and some docs think it would be better if it tripled. According to Jeffries, the 30 min value should be at least 30 because the baseline should have been at least 15. I was 11.6 and 23 at 30 minutes. So I got Cortef.
SOme people use the saliva test, which is certainly less invasive and should get around any stress from fear of needles (I fear needle BIG TIME, especially when they are digging around trying to get a vein and leaving big ole bruises everywhere). BUt my doc doesn't think the saliva test is accurate. However, you can get a two sample saliva test from Great Smoky Mountains for $50 or $60 without having to go through a doc.
However, once I started taking the cortef, which did seem to stabilize me (I have been steadily deteriorating for a long time, and pretty RAPIDLY deteriorating since December) I had the same question you did - how much of the fatigue etc is adrenal and how much is hypothyroid? Especially since the doc didn't want me to start my thyroid meds until I had seen "enough" improvement from the cortef. Yet the symptoms he was attributing to the adrenals (and hypoglycemia, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish that I don't even want to get into) are EXACTLY the same symptoms I attribute to my hypothyroid condition - fatigue, brain fog, difficulty concentrating, etc.
So after some discussion here and on the fatigue forum, I decided I had already seen "enough" improvement from the cortef and the DHEA and it was ok to go ahead and start addressing the thyroid.
I've only been on Armour for three days, and I have seen a slight but noticeable difference already.
I guess none of that is really answering your question, but what I'm trying to say is, sometimes you just have to try it to see if it works.
If your doc won't do an ACTH stim test, go for the saliva test kit from Great Smoky Mountains, and see what it says.
From: KEESSKA Mar-28 9:54 am
To: SHEILAZINO (8 of 18)
33550.8 in reply to 33550.1
I had the same symptoms you did... ask your doc to give you T3 (Cytomel). The symptoms are consistent with not having enough T3. It really helped me!
33550.9 in reply to 33550.8
My Thyroid levels are good. I take 60mgs. of Armour. Armour has both T4, and T3. Level is at 1.9 at this time. If I increase my doseage, I swell, chest tightens, ill, hurt, exhausted, sever constipation, dry mouth, eyes, nose, vagina. It's as if my tissue absorbs all the moisture in my body, like Bounty paper towels aborbs spills. I generally have diarreah (gallbladder removed 20 years ago). Thank you for the advice. Have a Warm & Sunny Day!
From: KEESSKA Mar-28 10:51 am
To: SHEILAZINO (10 of 18)
33550.10 in reply to 33550.9
My point is that you may not have *enough* T3. I take Armour too, and when my depression starts acting up again I take my extra T3 and the depression (and other symptoms you mentioned you had) goes away. I was on Prozac 3x a day, seeing a shrink, doing the whole "depression" thing, then found out that depression is common for hypos and that low T3 levels is what causes it! And the shrink wanted to put me on Lithium, for heaven's sake! The T3 saved me and got me off the prozac, shrinks, and whatever the heck else. And while your T4 might be fine but you may need a little extra T3 that the Armour doesn't have enough of for you. Try it out -- why should you suffer?
33550.11 in reply to 33550.4
Thank you for your response. I now have a wonderful DR. She is the only one whom has even bothered to check adrenals, suggest a Thyroid scan, and spends hours with me each time I go. She is a firm believer on how the patient feels, not what the lab values say. My Thyroid was 1.9 three weeks ago. The suggestion of an adrenal tumor is because of my Blood Pressure being irrattic. I did the salava test for the adrenals, then months later just did an 8am blood draw to see if there had been any change. I don't think my body would be able to tolerate the ACTH test. I just don't think I could survive it. The Dr and I discussed the swelling. . .she believes it's due to my adrenals being too low. I don't urinate like I feel I should. I forget at the moment which hormone it is the adrenals secrete that controls that. One of them causes excessive urine, while the other causes scant urine. I don't know the cortef level, because it was compounded with vitamins to help support the adrenals. Now I'm on just the vitamins. It is odd how my body reacts when I up my thyroid dose. I don't think any of the DR's understand that either. My last DR's were Endo's. Won't go there again. One of them told me it was all in my head when my TSH was 3.45, while the other over medicated me with 25 mgs of Cytomel, and .88mgs of Synthroid. He even told me he wouldn't check my adrenals because I didn't have all the symptoms, and it would make my insurance go up. How do you like that. Oh a GP only wants to push paxil! When that happened I knew my Thryoid levels were too low. I went to him for a sinus infection, and a urinary track infection. He tells me I'm stressed, and depressed. So now I call him a Paxil pusher! Won't go there anymore either. Thank you again. I hope you have a beautiful day.
33550.15 in reply to 33550.13
Yes, best to stay away from them! If you don't already have it, get "The Thyroid Solution" by Dr. Arem. He has a *fabulous* chapter on hypo-induced depression. I just *happened* to see that book at the book store 2 years ago, and it SAVED me from the prozac, lithium, hospitalization nonsense. Within weeks of taking T3, I lost 30 of the 70 pounds I gained after going hypo, I lost a lot of the bloating, and (most) of the depression went away! You *must* look into it! Good luck -- let me know how things go!
We performed a placebo-controlled prospective study, including 72 age-matched
females (mean age 42y) with active autoimmune thyroiditis. Thirty-six of them
received sodium selenite, 200 µg orally per day, and 36 received placebo. The
patients were informed and agreed to participate in the study. We found that
the antibody concentrations significantly decreased to 51% in the treatment
group, and 9 patients out of the treatment group were completely normalized
in antibody titers and thyroid ultrasound compared to only 2 in the placebo
group. This clearly indicates that patients with autoimmune thyroid disease
benefit from selenium supplementation. We can suggest, especially during onset
of the autoimmune thyroid diseases, that a selenium supplementation prevents
progression of the disease. We must further investigate whether other, more
severe autoimmune diseases can be influenced or even prevented. Selenium therapy
would be a new, cost-effective and safe concept of treatment.